so what about church?

by Anthony Doheny 18 September 2007 122 views Comments

Several months ago Josh turned me on to a blog site that recently posted a thought about the church. Since this is a subject we have discussed here, at length I might add, I thought it was worth sharing here. I think he’s right on!

so i used to be this big “house church” guy

really thought “simple church” was it

now…

not so much

now i see it as but a step in the right direction

it is but a step toward erasing the lines between the clergy and the laity, the sacred and the secular, the internal life and the external life

i have some questions that have brought me to this place

1. why is there a difference between what happens at our dinner table on sunday and what happens in the living room immediately afterwards?

2. why are the most important communal spiritual experiences i have happening at times other than sunday morning? even though i’m sharing those times with some of the people i see at “church”…

3. why does the word church, when applied to a specific time or place, actually seem to diminish the authenticity of the experience?

4. and is it just me?

i mean, the bride is the bride all the time

right?

it seems like labeling a time or place “the bride” actually diminishes our ability to actually experience the bride

so i’m wondering why we continue to do this

many people immediately quote this “run home to momma” passage, forsake not the gathering of yourselves together as if it is a mandate to go to “church”

but isn’t hanging out with brothers and sisters over burgers and beers on friday night gathering?

isn’t going to the park to do a little bouldering on the side of the public restroom gathering?

isn’t sitting down with your family to eat gathering?

why is it that the most fulfilling and encouraging times of our lives have been excluded from the definition of the gathering?

how is it possible that we can go to church when we are the church?

what about birthday parties, golfing excursions, garage sale-ing, cigar smoking, mall walking…

do they count as gathering?

and if they do, do we still need sunday morning?

these may seem like trivial questions born of a simplistic view of scripture, God, and life in general…

but i am convinced the impulse that prompts them is born of this sense that something is terribly wrong

and their answers are keys to a different approach to life and the world

i am convinced that the answers will reveal that there is no difference between worship

and life

as with the Father so with the Son

as with the Son so with his bride

or something truly is terribly wrong

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Rick Dancer said:

Why do we do it?
1)It feels safe.
2)It’s what we learned.
3)We don’t know anything else.
4)Peer Pressure.
5)It fills a need/void.
6)It works for a lot of people.
7)It’s easy for the majority of believers.
8)It takes very little work/You just need to know how to get along to be successful.
9)The way we’ve always interpreted, or been told to interpret the Bible seems to tell us it’s right.
10)We don’t understand history.
11)It’s a great start for believers.
12)It’s a place where you can get plenty of milk.
13)Most believers are not carnivores…they are milk drinkers.
14)I should stop.

# 18 September 2007 at 4:49 pm

Catherine Amber said:

I just spent a couple of days camping with my “best friend”. We were roomates in college and have been tight ever since - over 20 years. We have a different set of politics and religious beliefs yet have very common values and rarely experience discord in our relationship. We had great fellowship together, having left the hubbies and kids behind for this trip. Just us old friends catching up, talking about the kids and hubbies at home, work, other family, friends and faith. We talk about faith a lot. Although our core beliefs about God are a bit different, the way believe believing in God impacts the way we treat other people (or should/could) is nearly identical. Our commonality on this serves as encouragement for both of us to dig deeper, stay silent longer (in a patient way) and to strain to see others through eyes of compassion. Sounds kind of Jesus-y, eh?
We had great fellowship, along with some bread and wine. Sounds like church to me!

# 19 September 2007 at 11:22 am

Jason Carr said:

Here’s something I struggle with: teaching/structure.

I’m a pretty conservative guy (I’m not talking politics here), who likes things to be in order. I like schedules and and timed meetings, because they keep me in line and focused. For instance, if I don’t make a list of what I need to accomplish for that day at work, I often don’t get anything accomplished. I need constant reminders of how I’m supposed to walk down the path.

I go to chruch, not because it’s structured, I go because it reminds me of who the source of my life is. It helps me to reconnect with friends, and it provides stability. And I just love being around people, especially those who I’ve gone to church with in Bend for years. There’s a connection and an accountability that I really enjoy. Is it safe? You bet, and that’s what I like about it. Does it limit my ability to branch out, and see church differently? I don’t think so.

Secondly, I get the thing about burgers and beer and a Friday night. But where does teaching come in? If you look back at the Jewish culture (the same culture Jesus participated in) you will find that there were regular gathering times where the scribes and teachers in the villages taught the word of God. To me, that’s one of the main reasons I go. I love to learn, and hear more about God.

Yes, I learn from others through conversation and relationship, but I think that’s just one dimension of learning and seeking out God. For me, I need the stucture of being taught how God’s word applies to my life. That, in turn, makes me more effective when I do church the rest of the week. So, Rick, for folks like you who have chosen not to be a part of the “traditional” church, how does teaching get incorporated into your everyday life? If all the gifts of God need to e used to bring untiy to God’s people, how does that work without some kind of organized gathering?

I’m always willing to seek out changes in my approach to God. Whether I’m being taught by a pastor in a church of 3,000 or by a teacher in a group of 5, I don’t care. I just like the structure of a time where I can learn and soak in God’s word. I love to get deep!

# 19 September 2007 at 11:33 am

Anthony Doheny (author) said:

Jason,
If structure works for you then so be it. The question I have is why does anyone have to go to the building to get teaching? The rabbi’s taught not only in the temple but also in their everyday living. Jesus did so much of his teaching while traversing the land we call holy. I can honestly say that I have learned so much of the gospel not only in catechism, Sunday School, worship or youth group or anything else that brought me to the building, but “at home and walking along the road, while lying down and in my getting up” (Deut. 6). Teaching happens at the dinner table, while playing the board game, while walking the dog w/my son, or playing golf, or gathering with friends. I’m not discounting the gathering at the building either. I’m simply reiterating what I think the blog was about - it doesn’t just have to be at the church building to experience “church.” What I get out of the blog is that “church” can be experienced in creative ways we never thought. One size doesn’t fit all.

# 19 September 2007 at 1:05 pm

Jason Carr said:

One size doesn’t fit all…I couldn’t agree more!

That’s what I was trying to say, but maybe I didn’t explain it very well. I’m not saying that I need a building or a church to learn, but I want to make sure that the person “teaching” is learned in the scriptures.

In Jewish culture, not just anyone could teach. You had to go through extensive training. My question is, how does that work if you’re not involved in some kind of organized group on a consistent basis?

# 19 September 2007 at 2:53 pm

Dave Cramer said:

Maybe the point of life is to get to the place where you don’t need someone to tell you what to do anymore. Freedom, not just freedom to believe, but freedom to live your life is a lot scarier than we think. Not having someone there to tell you what to do or think means having to make decisions for yourself.

Now, that doesn’t mean that you can’t listen to the advice of other, but everything that you hear is someone else’s take on the situation. It can be helpful, but it can’t be yours.

What do you want to be taught at church? I wonder what it is that we feel like we can learn from a pastor that we can’t learn from a friend or relative, or maybe even from an enemy. Life is liquid, it’s always changing. Maybe the words in the Bible haven’t changed, but the way we read them, the biases and interpretations that shade their meaning definitely have. It’s the same words, but it’s not the same Bible. But that doesn’t mean that it’s irrelevant. It just means it’s different, and that’s okay with me.

Honestly, from my heart, I don’t care to do church. I go on Sundays, and I do love it, but that’s not how I want to define myself. I don’t want to be “the church” because that is some vague metaphor that I believe does a great deal to separate “us” from “them” and I’m not playing that game anymore. I want to love people. We all experience life. And to me, that means that we all experience God. Whether we recognize it or not. To me, that’s good enough for you to be my brother, my sister, my friend.

We may agree, and we may not. It’s part of what makes us family. It’s part of what makes us strong.

# 19 September 2007 at 3:21 pm

Catherine Amber said:

I get what Jason is saying about the teaching and wanting to get it from people steeped in scripture.
I am an avid reader and check out the authors I read pretty carefully becuase I want to learn from them. Often I get as much spiritual learning from a book about mountaineering or explorers or history or a good story as I do from a theology text. If the writer is well grounded in common sense and adds some humor, I am attentive. Same goes in relationships - inside and outside the church. I am ‘attracted’ to people who seem well grounded in common sense and have a good bit of humor to add to the journey.
I don’t think we have to go to a building to get teaching. A church is just another gathering place, call it a church, a classroom or a bar, the commonality is people gather there. What was the ‘Cheers’ theme - some times you just want to go where everybody knows your name? That’s a pretty universal experience.

# 19 September 2007 at 5:18 pm

barbara said:

I love to go to church - I do. I love the people there, the spirit there, the music, the teaching, the soft chairs and the pretty surroundings. I just like it there - it is a pleasant place, and experience, for me. But by no means is it the only place, or even the “main” place that I experience the fellowship, teaching, gathering, gleaning, learning, etc. of my faith. Remember Robert Fulghum’s “Everything I Ever Learned I Learned in Kindergarten” book? Everything I’ve ever learned about faith, about love, about people, about Grace, about Jesus, about my journey, and about the journeys of others, has been with (and because of) people - - sometimes, we’re at church; more often we’re just hanging out. PEOPLE are the key for me. Where there are people, there is God. (Where two or more or gathered….) And where there is God, I learn, I grown, I am challenged, I am humbled, and I am blessed.

# 19 September 2007 at 7:16 pm

barbara said:

(pretty sure I messed up that Fulghum book name, but you get my drift….)

(Cat - my best friend, Shauna, was a Mormon - lifelong, tried and true, to the end. We NEVER, and I mean NEVER, focused on what was different, but in our discussions about faith, and there were hundreds of them, if not thousands, we operated from the basis of our commonalities. It was the coolest thing ever and I miss it, and her, so much. I love that you got to hang with your BFF recently. I’d give just about anything to have those days back with mine….)

# 19 September 2007 at 7:19 pm

Jason Carr said:

Dave,

Thanks for your comments.

For me, it isn’t about somebody telling me what to do. I go to church because I want to learn, and be sharpened. As a young man, I often have more answers than questions. I’m learning that it needs to be the other way around.

I agree that we can learn from life in all circumstances, even from friends. One thing I’ve learned in life is how valuable the wisdom is of someone who is older, with more life experiences to share. God didn’t say grey hair was a sign of wisdom for no reason. (Rick, I guess that means you’re way smarter than the rest of us!)

As a young man, I have to be willing to humble myself, realize I don’t have all the answers, and carefully listen to those who’ve already traveled down the path I’m headed. Life isn’t the same for all of us, but nothing is new under the sun. Some of the same struggles and heartaches we deal with today, Solomon dealt with thousands of years ago. Freedom is just about doing what I want, and living my life how I see fit; freedom to me is understanding what God has for me and be willing to listen to his voice.

Harvard University was founded on the premise that this country should not have uneducated clergy. I think it’s wise for all of us (whether it’s through a church, or someone independent) that we spend time with someone who is obvioulsy knowledgable in the word of God. It will only help us grow, and be more effective in our walk and our witness.

Paul didn’t tell women not to each because they were women. He told them that because women in that day weren’t learned in the scriptures. For them to get up and teach was creating hearesy and factions. We need to realize that the same can happen today if we start publicly telling people untrue, or inaccurate things about God.

# 19 September 2007 at 9:42 pm

barbara said:

But what better “teacher” is there than experience? And where do we find a more vast array of experiences than with a vast array of people? And what are experiences except for one individual’s journey (complete with their own values, perceptions, and biases, based upon their past experiences, which include all the same…) through a circumstance?

Its still about people for me. I am not discounting the value of education and of “trained and educated” leadership….but its still all about people for me. And I fear that sometimes our trained and educated church leadership is so far removed from the real-life experiences of those in the flock that their (the leadership’s) “book smarts” do not serve them well. Just my opinion, and certainly not meant to be interpreted as a broad generalization….

# 20 September 2007 at 6:55 am

Jason Carr said:

Barbara,

I agree. That’s the point I was making earlier about the fact that we learn in many different ways. I want my education about God to include training and people. I think there’s a disconnect when it’s just one or the other. I believe there is a place for in-depth teaching, and times of fellowship where life experiences are shared amongst friends and fellow believers.

# 20 September 2007 at 7:39 am

Dave Cramer said:

I agree with you Jason. It is important to have the insight of people from different places, people that have the ability to look back on their life and draw on their experiences. But our world has changed so rapidly in the last few half century, that the gift of experience is often viewed as obsolete, and in some ways it is.

When viewed in the context of postmodernism, it is difficult for the youth to embrace a modernism that seems cut and dry in a culture that values the gray and values the myriad of choices. This doesn’t mean that one way is better, and I have a feeling that someday, because of the circular nature of life, that we will one day come back to a place where there is a definite belief in a universal truth. I don’t think that the postmodernism says “no truth,” just “no knowable absolutes”.

When I have approached people with more modern viewpoints, there is this sense that we are not starting from the same place. To me, this sometimes makes it difficult to participate in discussions with pastors/my elders who have more experience. Maybe, difficult isn’t the right word, but it feels like to gleen the truths that I can apply to my life, I have to filter them through my experiences of God/Life.

So for me, “in-depth teaching” becomes something that is much more experiential than it is passive learning. I love hearing people teach, but until that teaching becomes a reality in my experiences, then it is ineffectual. Teaching can illuminate that which I have already experienced, but to reveal something new, it takes something more.

# 20 September 2007 at 8:55 am

Catherine Amber said:

Was reading a short history of the church (the title of the chapter was The Interaction of Culture and Theology)and the author was tracking through the move of evangelical intellectualism, roughly 1945-1985, and had this to say:
In it’s success, something very important was lost. Academic theology lost connection with practice. Theology became an abstraction, an idea to be defended.

I think the church has a huge opportunity to be a place where people can feel they are accepted, where they can share safely AND be nurtured, fed, encouraged. The challenge is that some churches are political in terms of people having a pecking order or a sense of territory. This is a difficult dynamic to break down. And someone has to start the conversation that begins the process. When it becomes more about ‘we’ than about ‘me’ there is progress. It takes a group of loving, centered, and grounded believers to foster that kind of enviornment. Jesus purposely put the disciples in relationship with each other. That is church, supporting and encouraging each other in the quest for finding God more deeply sustaining in our spirits. Charlatan church is where people gossip and backstab before committee meetings, where there are arguments about who stands in the front row of the choir, where broken people are whipped a little more instead of reminded of the endless mercy and great, gentle love of the Savior.

# 20 September 2007 at 1:10 pm

Dave Cramer said:

Catherine…

You said “When it becomes more about ‘we’ than about ‘me’ there is progress.” I agree with this in the context of what you were saying. Too often (and this is BOTH inside and outside of the church) it is “we/them” as well as “we/me.”

Too often there is more grace for those outside the church, because we don’t expect that much from them. But if we really look for the Divine in every experience, in every person, then there will always be enough grace to go around. Funny how when we expect to see the divine in someone, then we forgive the disparity that we see a lot sooner.

# 20 September 2007 at 1:53 pm

Rick Dancer said:

I want to get in on this one. This is good stuff.

I agree we need teachers.
I learned a lot over the years about God, faith, Christ, the bible…all of it, by going to institutional church.

Who teaches me now?
You guys.
People I run into.
Some trained, some not. All have experience….life experience.

But one of my greatest teachers, Greig Detering, has none of that and yet I hear the words of God coming from his mouth. He’s my Rabbi. No Degree…but lots of God.

I know Rabbi’s were educated in the Torah.
That was part of it.
But did Moses take any classes?
Or was he simply called by God and given the word and position as leader.
I don’t think Bible College prepares people for that kind of task…God does.

I’ve been to institutional churches and heard educated leaders say some amazing things…and some really screwed up stuff.

Did the fact that they were educated make it true?

Wasn’t it Martin Luther, who made some very racist remarks and decisions in his lifetime…yet he was taught, educated and an amazing man of God.(I hope I have my history right).

I trust and listen to many teachers in my life…bus drivers, homeless, and others.
But most of all I listen to Jesus..like you guys.

# 20 September 2007 at 4:55 pm

Catherine Amber said:

Dave, great point about how we look at other people and how that causes us to offer or withhold grace. I saw a presentation once about labels. A woman starts off standing in a t-shirt and jeans. They describe her as ‘just arrived’, like a baby, still looking a lot like God intended. But then she grows up and things happen and people begin to put labels on her. They put labels all over her shirt and jeans and arms and face and hair. The labels read abused, ugly, lesbian, etc…, you get the idea. She then had all the labels ripped off. the presenters point was to demonstrate what Jesus accomplished, how people see us in contrast with how our Creator sees us. This ‘teaching’ has stayed with me since Isaw it five years ago. It helps me judge less - unfortunately, ‘judge not’ is still a far off goal.

When we read the words ‘for God so loved the world’ do we actually believe it?? To be honest, I am only just beginning to believe God really does care about each and every person walking the planet. That makes me consider them diferently, starting in my own home, small circle of friends, bigger circle, etc… When I look at people and remember God has hopes for them, it rekindles my own for them. This morning I was at the library and walking out saw a guy who is currently in a precarious life cycle. We talked for a while. I hope I offered him a little hope. I gave him a hug. I’ve known him for at least ten years. His has been a hard journey largely through bad choices he has made. But today I am not sure if dealt the same hand, I might not have made the same bad choices. There is a peace for me in stopping and just saying “I don’t know”.

But as Rick just pointed out, everyone has something to teach. I learned from Jeff’s spirit this morning. I learned from (BFF)Marie last weekend. I learn every time I log on to this wonderful place.

# 20 September 2007 at 9:16 pm

barbara said:

I repeat, people. P - E - O - P - L - E. God uses people. We all learn from People (I’ve decided to capitalize People because I am beginning to realize they are THAT important in this whole thing….) in different ways and in different surroundings. What is important is that we are all OPEN to learning, and OPEN to ALL People and what they might bring to our lives, our thoughts, our paradigms (oooo - Steven Covey word - aren’t you impressed?!) that we can then, in turn, use to bless someone else’s life along the way…..

Just my thoughts…again.

# 21 September 2007 at 10:44 am

Sue said:

Cat, the lables thing reminds me of a childrens book by Max Lacado that my daughter purchased for her nephew. It was about “dots” sticking to you. My daughter’s very wise in mercy and I was touched by how this book touched her.

I am awed everyday by how the Lord so often moves people in the same way. I too have been touched by people, especially in this last year. So much so that the “territory” that the Lord has blessed me with has climbed the charts on my heart to surpass where I gather on Sunday mornings. I LOVE getting together with other believers on Sunday and the rest but the Lord has given more desire for my neighbors lately. For me, this seems to be a step in erasing the lines.

# 22 September 2007 at 11:11 am

Rick Dancer said:

Sue, I love that book. I read that to school kids all the time and they get it.

# 23 September 2007 at 6:24 am

Jason Carr said:

Universal truths? That’s a tough subject. You definitely start mixing a lot of gray with black and white. I think history shows that any generation that tries to find “self” always becomes self-destructive.

When we look into “self” rather than God, we begin to become a god, wishing to please our own desires and we go down, what I call, the dangerous road of creating our own standards and so-called pathways to a “higher power.” Sounds good, but who’s standard do we live by? Who’s principles are right and true?

I think there’s way too much said about culture; where it was, and where it’s heading. Sure, I believe Jesus would probably dress more “modern” if He came back today(we probably wouldn’t see him in ancient Jewish garb). But would the truth he spoke 3,000 years ago be any different? I don’t think so.

I had the unique privilege of officiating my Grandfather’s funeral this weekend. What an honor it was. He was not a deeply religious man by an means, and wasn’t comfortable in church. But he always said that he could not have made it through World War II and the Korean conflict without God’s guidance and protection. It amazes me how death changes your perspective.

As I looked out at four different generations standing before me, all with different experiences, and values - I wondered what I’d say given the fact that I really didn’t want to turn my Grandfathers funeral into a sermon about salvation. So I took God’s word to its simplest form: love. I used John 15, which talks about a man has no greater love than to lay down his life for a friend. I mentioned what Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes about the importance of relationship. And I also mentioned that of all the laws, regulations, and principles God’s word talks about, Jesus broke it down to this: Love God, and others.

There can be no wavering from that. That’s a universal truth that I believe no Christian can deny (if you believe the Bible is inspired by God). What makes it tough (in my opinion) is that loving God means allowing yourself to depend completely and totally upon him. That means not looking to “self” or your standards, but His. Preference vs. Principles. Are you mixing them? I don’t believe God changes with the culture; heck, we couldn’t think of any new ideas with him give us the very breath of life. Referring to Solomon again, he said that NOTHING is new under the sun. What we think is new, has already been tried, and even thought of. Man’s heart is always intent on doing it HIS way.

I believe that God meets us where we are no matter what, but he doesn’t just change his truths to satisfy us. When he met the woman at the well, the culture she came from was far different. Jesus didn’t care. He just talked with, spoke truth to her, and pointed life back to him. If God isn’t our source for love, knowledge, and understanding, then there’s a good chance we’re looking within for truth.

And if we don’t love others, how can we love God? The way I see it, there’s not one of us who will ever experience life to its fullest until we get those two things down. I sure have NOT perfected them, but it’s made me realize that I must start there. That, to me, is where God’s power will be revealed.

# 23 September 2007 at 7:02 pm

Dave Cramer said:

Jason,

I agree that Love is definitely the way of God.

That sounds like a profound experience, getting to officiate your grandfather’s funeral.

I also agree that there are universal truths, but I would say that claiming to know what they are is dangerous. I don’t think that it needs to be about “finding our own way,” but I would say that too often we try to find someone else’s way.

God is big. Love is big. And if we say that these are more than we can think, say, or dream, then we have to follow that into the terrifying places that Not Knowing can take us. I think that if we do, we will find that they are not so scary, and feel a lot like love.

I believe in love. I believe it’s always worth it to love wastefully and recklessly. I believe that the least of these is truly the greatest of all, and the greatest of all is the least of these. I believe it’s an even playing field spiritually, and I wish it was economically and socially. Love with no conditions, no pre-requisites, and no addendums… sounds like heaven.

# 24 September 2007 at 2:57 pm

Rick Dancer said:

Dave, Just a question. Where does Jesus fit into all of this for you?
Is He The Truth?

I hope you don’t take this like I’m judging…I’m not.
I’m just trying to get a feel for what you are thinking and I like to read your answers.

# 24 September 2007 at 4:48 pm

Dave Cramer said:

The Truth with a capital “T”…

In essence, do I believe that Jesus IS God, I think is what you are asking.

This could take forever to explain, but I will try to be brief. I believe that the notion of Jesus as the Literal God was born out of an attempt to make meaning from the life that he led. I don’t think that he was “God from birth,” but I do believe that he was tapped into something that no one else ever has been.

I believe that so much of Jesus as Literally God has been taken from the Gospel of John, which seems to me to be used out of context. When compared with the Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels, it hardly resembles the same guy. In the Synoptics, he is action focused, loving and speaks in parables. In John, he is cryptic and vague, using a lot of ambiguous, philosophical language. Could that have been Jesus? Sure, but it sounds a lot more like John trying to defend the emerging Christianity from the Gnostic influence. There is massive evidence that the Christianity that we know today was not the only way of viewing Jesus, and was certainly not the “only correct” way of viewing Jesus. It was not until the Church unified under the Council of Nicea a good 2 1/2 centuries after Jesus death that “heresies” were officially defined, though they had certainly been combatted earlier.

I love Jesus. For me, to say anything concrete about God, to apply any “IS” to God, confines and limits God. God has to be bigger than what we can imagine, and to me, that can’t be summed up in a man, but rather in all the experiences of all the people that have ever lived and ever will live. And then God must be bigger.

But I feel cheap even saying that, because it’s less than what I feel.

Jesus is Divine. He ignites the spark of the divine in everyone that came in true contact with him. He was revolutionary. I do love him. And I see God in Him. But I don’t think that I see God AS Him. So yes, he is truth, but I would say that no one can know Truth.

Maybe that makes sense, maybe it doesn’t. It helps me. I like this place.

# 25 September 2007 at 9:14 pm

Rick Dancer said:

Dave,
Thanks for your honesty. I don’t really agree with you but who cares. That’s not what this conversation is about right?
Here’s my point: You can’t figure God out. You can’t study your way to Jesus.
It’s both a work of the mind and spirit and the heart.
God tells us throughout the word that there are many who will try to “Figure” him out but like any good relationship, that will never give you the answers.

Here’s what keeps popping into my mind when I read what you wrote.
It sounds like you are using common sense and education to try to figure out a relationship.
In any relationship, there has to be faith.
We will never figure God out.
That’s why most of the Bible is written in parables.

Why do you believe that Jesus is the Truth, which is what it says in the Bible, but you don’t believe the part that says he’s also the son of God?

How do you decide which parts of the Bible are truth and which are fiction?

# 26 September 2007 at 5:23 am

Dave Cramer said:

Rick,

I agree that I cannot figure God out. In fact, I think that’s been everything that I’ve been saying with my posts. We don’t have a language to speak about God. There are no words in this world that truly and accurately describe what people are experiencing or working through. Your experiences, while you can describe them, they inherently defy description because you cannot capture the deepest essence of what you truly felt in words. To me, anytime I really want to describe what I was feeling, I always feel silly because the depths of my most profound experiences always come across as shallow and cliche, exactly what they were not.

To me, there is a trust that moves beyond the need to believe certain tenets. Like I said, it is a trust that knows that there is something that the words we have heard have only hinted at, and it takes courage to push into something that runs deeper than reason, and deeper than “belief.” I think that Jesus did not want his disciples to cling to the things that they could see and hold onto. That’s what he’s getting at with “wherever two or more are gathered…/I will never leave you nor forsake you.” He won’t literally be there, but the spirit that he embodied, his love and compassion, will be.

I think it is a misunderstanding that I need to “figure it out.” I’m fine with things not making sense. I’m walking anyway. To me, so much of contemporary Christianity is trying to figure it out with pop-Psychology and Sermon notes. Anything that could be pushing towards the mysterious is heretical because it doesn’t acknowledge these important doctrines that we cling to more ferociously than anything because that’s what’s safe, that’s what we KNOW about God. I dislike that.

How do you decide which parts are truth? For me, the whole thing is truth. How can you tell someone that what they felt is fiction, or false? Maybe the facts aren’t true, and maybe they are. But, I can say that they were feeling something profound, something that moved them to write. Things like Genesis strike me as more mythological, which doesn’t mean that it’s false, it just means that is how I read it. True or false, it is helpful to have an explanation of the foundations of the faith tradition that I ascribe to.

I don’t think it’s fact or fiction. Maybe that’s having my cake and eating it too, but those aren’t mutually exclusive for me.

# 26 September 2007 at 8:04 am

Rick Dancer said:

Dave, I know we can’t figure God out. But why would God create us, to relate to Him, and not give us the words or language to express that.

I think God still speaks to us today.
I think there are things about our walk He wants us to define and understand.

It would be like having a lover, that you could never understand. How can you love someone you can’t talk with or can’t understand?

I’m not saying you are wrong or anything like that…and while I see God as a mystery, I think it is a mystery that parts are solvable, or we’d all be robots.

# 26 September 2007 at 3:53 pm

Dave Cramer said:

Rick,

I would say that all of the deepest and most profound moments, while we can try to explain them, transcend the words that we use. I think this is the beauty of meditation, of “Be still and know that I am God.” Don’t try to explain things away in doctrines and mantras. Let the massiveness of our existence, and God’s, collide in a way that washes away the security and takes out to where we can’t swim, but where we don’t worry about drowning either.

I agree that God still speaks, but it’s in a human language. Human language is limited in that it is human. It is temporal, it is incomplete, and it is ambiguous. It is shallow and its meaning is elusive. So if we believe that God is infinite, complete, and clear. If we believe God is Deep and God’s meaning is attainable, then anything that we will say in human language is ultimately a significant shortcoming. Think about it, if I was to describe myself, it would take the rest of my life because I would always be attaining new revelations about myself, new understandings and clarity. But ultimately I know that the words are not going to measure up. They won’t quite get there.

I’m comfortable with speaking about God if we embrace an awareness that everything that we are saying is only hinting at something else. There is an infinite degree of understatement in our words concerning God. That doesn’t mean they aren’t true, it just means that they aren’t conclusive. I’m okay with that. I still love God. I don’t understand my fiancee. When I try to tell her how much I love her, it isn’t what I really mean. I mean, I REALLY love her, but I can’t convey with words the depths of my love. Same with her. I know, I have faith, I trust that she loves me. I know that when she says she loves me, her love runs deeper than those words. That’s where the trust comes into it for me.

I don’t think God was meant to solved. Just experienced. Life isn’t a puzzle to me. It’s a journey that changes us, heart, mind, and soul. And body too.

# 27 September 2007 at 6:37 am

Rick Dancer said:

I hear you.

# 27 September 2007 at 3:04 pm

Dan Morehead said:

Everything you say makes sense as long as you don’t see litgury as the work of the people, work which is necessary in order to become the kind of people who can worship God rightly (which in turn gives birth to the possibility that our gathering around burgers and beer might be the meeting of Godly people). Honestly, your post sounds like romanticism with a sideways glance toward Jesus.

Like the blog…first time visitor.

# 28 September 2007 at 8:11 am

Rick Dancer said:

Dan,
Romanticism is the perfect word. I couldn’t pinpoint what was sticking out for me…what was bothering me…that’s it.
It’s sounds too good and a little obscure for me.
There are parts of it Dave that I can understand, but some of it is, for me, if I’m honest, just a little off…. That’s okay. We don’t have to agree. That’s not what this website is for…..

# 28 September 2007 at 4:46 pm

barbara said:

But isn’t romantic love used to describe Christ’s love for us in the Bible? The bride and the bridegroom? It doesn’t get more romantic than that.

# 30 September 2007 at 6:17 pm

Rick Dancer said:

Yes, but I think living a Christlike life is a lot more than romantic’s and romantic ideas. There’s warefare…lots of it. The enemy of our soul would love to have us see it all as love without any warefare. That way He can take us out. I know from past readings and writings there may be some that disagree, but I think part of the enemy, and I believe there is an enemy’s plan is to have us not deal with the battles.
Does that make sense?

# 30 September 2007 at 6:57 pm

barbara said:

Yes, it makes sense, at least in the sense of I hear and understand where you are coming from. We just aren’t in the same place when it comes to “warfare”, but, as you said, that is okay - this place isn’t about agreeing, it’s about talking and listening, and I always always always appreciate talking to you, Rick, and the way in which you listen and share.

For me, when I am truly striving to live a Christ-like life (and I wish I could say that I did that all the time!), it is easiest and comes most-naturally when it is about love - crazy, head-over-heels, all-consuming love. I think the Gospel in its most-complicated form is still all about love. And, for sure, in its simplest form it is.

What’s that famous quote (well, how famous is it if I can’t even remember it accurately?) - I’ve seen the enemy and it is me? I wonder if that doesn’t apply to me in regards to my faith?

# 1 October 2007 at 5:57 am

Dave Cramer said:

Amen Barbara.

We often are our biggest enemies when it comes to living well. Selfishness pervades our thinking. We fail to love.

Rick,

I know that you don’t agree. I wouldn’t ask you to. I appreciate that you listen and learn from me, as I do with you.

I know that it sounds “too good and a little obscure.” I guess to me, when it comes to God, most stuff doesn’t sound “good enough.” I believe that God is better than all the hopes and dreams, all the wishes that this world has ever known. Better than the sun, and the moon, than a first kiss, or a wedding day, better than a newborn baby, better than life itself.

There I go with the obscure again, but I can’t help it because when I speak about God, it never sounds exactly right. I can’t say what it could be that is better than those things, but I know that it must be. So if it sounds too good to be true, then I would say (if we’re talking about God), that it’s probably not true enough.

# 1 October 2007 at 9:26 am

Rick Dancer said:

What do you, Dave, think about the enemy. Is there a Satan the way the Bible says or is that a story that someone made up?

# 1 October 2007 at 7:39 pm

Dave Cramer said:

I think that’s a discussion for a different time and a different place. My view is that the language concerning Satan is metaphorical. Doesn’t mean that it can’t be true. I think it is quite possible. To me though, it sounds like metaphor.

# 2 October 2007 at 7:10 am

Rick Dancer said:

Okay,
Dave, we should have coffee sometime. I’d love to hear more.

# 2 October 2007 at 7:37 pm

Dave Cramer said:

I would definitely like that. We’ll have to find a way to make that work.

# 3 October 2007 at 6:34 am

Rick Dancer said:

Anthony has my phone number….or email me at realnew@rickdancer.com

# 3 October 2007 at 4:50 pm

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