Would you…
January 3rd, 2008 | by Joshua Kagi | Published in Featured | 56 Comments
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Epinoia Café is the official Emergent Village Cohort for the Eugene, Oregon region. The website is a multi-author blog featuring local contributors who write their thoughts on religion, faith, Jesus, God, community, the emerging church, and more. Though all of the contributors are Oregon based, everyone regardless of location or religious views are encouraged to participate in the discussions you find here. In addition to blogging, we also meet occasionally at a coffee shop, local restaurants, or in a home, for details on upcoming gatherings, see the events section.
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January 3rd, 2008 at 9:57 pm (#)
More and more, I’ve been asking myself those first two “what ifs” - “what if there is no heaven or hell?” - not in regard to would I still follow Christ, but just in the plain ol’ “what if” sense. I have no “final answer”….
What I do know about following Jesus is that, for me, it isn’t about heaven or hell anymore (because I don’t have good answers about heaven and hell anymore) - - but it is about attempting to live out my purpose. It is about wanting to find, or define, or continue, to try and live the life that God destined for me when S/He chose me as His/Her child.
That is my quick answer. This question will have my attention for a few days, I am sure.
January 4th, 2008 at 3:28 pm (#)
It think that it’s a major flaw in the way we perceive our spiritual lives that we do so in a “final destination” mentality. As if the whole meaning of life is going to one day be gloriously revealed and we will “Know” what life was all about.
Yes, I would. The love that Jesus represents is enough to make this life more than enough. If this life is all we get, then loving others has made my young life rich and full, and an eternity of Heaven can’t replace the Heaven I’ve seen here. So whether there is or there isn’t, I’d say that life is pretty beautiful. I know that it’s a privilege to be able to say that, but it’s also a privilege to be able to serve others.
January 4th, 2008 at 3:31 pm (#)
I dig the video, by the by.
January 4th, 2008 at 6:23 pm (#)
Yes, I love Jesus’ heart. His heart has transformed mine. He gives me hope, not for a reward system, but for who we actually are as creations of a Loving Creator and thus who we may become.
And it just Rocks my world to Believe in Him, to believe in Real Goodness and Truth. In a capricious world, that gives me something to be hopeful with.
January 4th, 2008 at 7:35 pm (#)
I wouldn’t! If there’s no heaven for the “good” people and no hell for the “bad” people then count me out. I’m not interested.
I hope you know I’m kidding and feeling rather sarcastic. Of course I’d follow Jesus! If I can bring a little heaven to earth while I’m alive then that makes it worth it for me. Oh wait, there is no heaven. I’ll get back to you on that.
January 4th, 2008 at 8:44 pm (#)
I’m thinking of what kind of person I was before I was saved. And if there was no need for a savior, then there wouldn’t of been a need for Jesus to go away and prepare a place for us…He’d still be here. And he wouldn’t have to send the Holy Spirit to transform my life and make Jesus more real to me, I probably would be to self_centered to notice this man’s wonderful life teachings…I don’t know. I wouldn’t be good enough to follow Jesus without his blood. And he wouldn’t of died on the cross if there was no need to save me from something….hmmmm pretty deep stuff.
His blood shed for us is the gospel.
January 4th, 2008 at 9:02 pm (#)
Also I should add that if Jesus made claims to a heaven and hell and they are not real, then He lied to me and God cannot lie. So then how could I trust anything he said…if this was not true then other things he said might not be true, etc. I would assume he was just a man that made up stories to get me to follow him.
On the other hand if one might suggest that Jesus never made any claims to heaven or hell and came down just to show us how to live and had some other type of plan that would transform our lives, then yes I would follow him, if he chose me…
January 5th, 2008 at 10:48 am (#)
Josh, first of all, love the video. What a great way to get the word out about Epiniocafe.
Now, the topic.
Yeh, I would. If you’d asked me that question a few years ago, I might have had a different answer. I grew up thinking that was the “payoff” for following Christ.
Now, I want to follow Christ because I like who He is and what He stands for. I love the way He transforms lives and opens doors that I never would have been able to walk through without Him. I love the freedom and yes, the structure He brings to my life. But it’s not a freedom or structure that’s easily understood.
Now, for me personally, I still believe there is a Heaven and a Hell. That’s what I read in the Bible and I do think it’s true.
But is that the reason I do what I do…No.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:05 pm (#)
I think we need to be careful not to take things out of scripture or add it. If there was no heaven, there would be no purpose for Jesus.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:06 pm (#)
I think we need to be careful not to take things out of scripture or add it.
January 6th, 2008 at 1:16 pm (#)
@ Jason (and the others who addressed it) — The point of this question is not to suggest there is a heaven or isn’t, that’s a topic that can be addressed at a different time. Rather, it’s to ask you to reflect on the impact of Jesus on your life on earth.
I’ll add my thoughts soon.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:10 pm (#)
Josh,
I guess it’s difficult not to answer the heaven question, when it’s so much a part of the video. For me - and it’s not like only my opinion matters - it would have been better to just ask us to reflect on the impact of Jesus on my life and on earth.
For me, it’s difficult to focus on the latter, when the former creates a theological buzz. I hope you understand where I’m coming from?
January 6th, 2008 at 6:08 pm (#)
Jesus means:
Relationship with Christ
Healing from the past
Forgiveness of my sins
Hope for the future
My wife and two children
Wonderful friends
A great church
The gift of writing
Learning to play guitar
Helping with local soup kitchen
Learning to give more & serve
Boy, this list could go on, and on…but all I can say is that I can’t imagine this life without Jesus. No matter what, I want to make sure my place in eternity is with Him!
January 8th, 2008 at 3:04 pm (#)
Sue,
Would you remind your former pastor where Jesus referred to “hell” in scripture.
I wonder sometimes if the interpretation is something other than we were taught?
January 8th, 2008 at 3:18 pm (#)
I meant to say “I wonder if what is real is something other than we were taught.”
January 9th, 2008 at 10:50 am (#)
Anthony, word study, here I come, busy next few days but I will check out where my thoughts have come from and get back to you. I think I was saved more because of the hope of heaven, not the fear of hell. And the thought of that not being there robs me of any hope that gets me through tough times. Hells bells, I don’t know, the rich man says it’s real. to be cont.
January 10th, 2008 at 8:45 pm (#)
Hey Anthony, Here’s what I found in red letters. I only wrote the passages that Jesus himself spoke. I think about us with our kids, we tell them throughout the day all the good things they are capable of and should aspire to be. Just b/c sharing the love is talked about more does not give any less importance to the warnings.
Matt 24:51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matt 41:42,43 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 22:13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Luke 13:28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Matt 5:22,29,30 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[a]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[b]‘ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Matt 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Jesus repeats himself alot, kinda like me when I say over and over again, “Don’t forget to where your seatbelt.”
January 11th, 2008 at 10:28 am (#)
Sue,
These translations of Hell come from the word “Gehenna” which was literally a trash heap outside of the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna was a visual that the people could put to the idea of those worthless things in our lives that do not bring us closer to God. Given what we believe to be true about God, that all are precious, I find it hard to believe that someone could be discarded as worthless.
Whenever Paul’s writings are translated to use the word hell, he references Hades, a Greek place of continued life after death. Not necessarily Heaven, but some people there are punished for a wasted life. I think of the story of the man who is sentenced to push a boulder up a hill, only to have it roll down again. Interesting that he uses that word instead of the Hebrew word, Sheol, which has be retro-translated (man, I just made that word up and it is awesome!) to “hell”, when it really just means “the grave.” You die, and then you go there. Samuel was there, Moses went there (for a funny account of Moses in Sheol, read God Knows, by Joseph Heller. It’s off color, and a bit sacreligious, but hilarious nonetheless, but I digress). The Grave, Sheol, is not the same as hell, and as such, Hell is a uniquely Western idea centered around justice and fairness for how you lived your life.
Peter writes and uses the word Tartarus for Hell, which is a place of punishment for the Titans in Greek Mythology. Less a place of punishment as it was a place to hold the volatile elder gods.
To me, the language seems very metaphorical. I hope that doesn’t make it any less powerful. It is something that we need to take very seriously. Hell is a result of our choices, whether that be “eternal” or simply a earthly sentence that we keep ourselves in. I don’t know where I stand, but I do know that I don’t want to stand in front of my Maker at the end of my life with only wasted time and broken hearts to show for my life here. I don’t want to stand with tattered remains of gifts squandered and love unused. I want to love extravagantly, wastefully, and shamelessly.
Jesus shows me how to do that. So I’d follow without eternal punishment or reward. If our deeds truly outlive us (and they do) then my actions build on the foundation of love that Jesus poured. The house of love is built on solid ground. That will last forever, and my life will be one small stone.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pm (#)
I know what being separated from God feels like - I lived that way for many years. If hell is anything close to that, it’s not a place I’d want to spend eternity.
However, I don’t believe the mentnion of hell in the Bible is meant to scare people into believing. I think it’s used more as a way to describe what life without God is like. That’s not a place I want to be, or go.
It does seem unimaginable to me that a person who spends his life raping, killing, and stealing - without repentance or recompense - would receive the same reward as somone, although imperfect, who believed and trusted in God, and tried dilligently to live his life for God. Doesn’t the status of the heart matter?
As a teenager, I used to worry about death. I wondered what the point of life was, and where I’d be going. Now, as a Christian, it’s not that I fear death any less, it’s that I’m confident I get to spend eternity with my Creator - only by His grace.
Philippians 1:21
“For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.”
January 11th, 2008 at 2:10 pm (#)
Here’s something interesting about death and life, at least from the NIV Bible…
569 - the number of versus that refer to death, dying, died, or die.
589 - the number of versus that refer to life.
It seems that both have equal importance in scripture. To what extent, or why, I’m too humanly to understand.
January 13th, 2008 at 11:11 am (#)
Thanks for your words Dave, I’m not sure what exactly hell is either but I know I don’t want to go. I’ve always thought my works done through Christ turn into gold and silver and will withstand the heat in the end and works done without him will burn as hay and straw. If there’s anything left at the end, even the size of a mustard seed, I’ve escaped hell. I also believe that hell is a place that all will be able see the glories of heaven for eternity and have the knowledge that pride or whatever sin kept them from believing. Maybe this is the consequence that causes the weeping and gnashing of teeth. I hate to believe that this realization would last for eternity, but…
I don’t have the detailed truth, only a warning from Jesus that there is something we need to avoid. The fact that he loved us so much that he freely died to save us from this place and bring us to our true home is all I need. It resonates truth in my spirit. I do the Christian walk simply because I want to spend eternity with Jesus, face to face.
January 13th, 2008 at 11:20 am (#)
Jason, I also meant to say that the numbers you mentioned of verses refering to life and death reminds me of the scripture in Matt 24 about one in the feild will be taken and the other left. There are so many things in the bible that “arn’t” coincidence. This could be another. Love these kind of facts, they make me think.
January 18th, 2008 at 7:59 pm (#)
A great book that gave me confidence is a book by James W. Woelfel, called Borderland Christianity: Critical Reason and Christian Love, Abingdon, 1973. 207 pp. In that book the author poses much the same question about the christian faith/belief system. Even if you had no intention of being a Christian, the author ends up stating that there is no other belief system or philosophy of life on the planet in which people have so much compassion for others that they would die for another person. Only Christianity has that. So, if given a choice to incorporate compassion into our lives or something else, the compassion piece is what sells the author.
For me that was helpful.
Two years ago, a light went on in my head that relates to the question posed that initiated good comments from others. We make too much about religion, take it too seriously. If there’s no heaven, no hell, so? For me, the words Jesus said, those who give to the poor, show compassion on others, that’s where I am. Jesus said he would know who those people are that helped others, who showed compassion and they would be welcome where he is. For me, that’s enough, more than enough. I do not need to be concerned about relms of existence that cannot be proven. It does not matter. I’m not alive only for the purpose of ending up in Hell or Heaven. I’m alive to be happy and help others to be happy. That’s good enough, more than good enough.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:45 pm (#)
I was at group with my friends my age, and I told them about this site and that this question was asked. What I felt I needed to say was that even if we didn’t get eternity in God’s kingdom, why not get all the love and joy from God and Jesus in the time living on earth. Sure it’s nothing like heaven, but I’d like to say God gave us a little piece of his kingdom in our hearts, it’s how we look at it and how we use it. How we can share it with other believers and expand that kingdom in our hearts. So, yes, I would still believe.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:19 am (#)
That’s good stuff, Nick! Thanks for sharing that.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:31 am (#)
Ohmigosh, this is the best thread of conversation. You people are so smart and I am so intimidated sometimes by it.
But I adore you all.
Dave, I’m thinking of changing my major to religion because of you and your smarts. love you.
January 24th, 2008 at 6:25 am (#)
I don’t like jumping into this conversation at all. I take Heaven and Hell, very seriously. Not as a threat, the way church has often used it but as truth. I don’t think it’s a metaphorical use the words at all. I think it is a place.
I keep reading this blog and have this uneasy feeling that can be written off by some as “fear based”. But I see all kinds of warnings about watering down the word.
Does the absence of Hell make Jesus more comfortable?
Maybe the question should be….if there is a Hell would you still love Jesus?
January 24th, 2008 at 6:27 am (#)
I”m not accusing but have been toiling over this one for weeks not knowing quite how to word it or what to say.
These are simply my thoughts and questions.
January 24th, 2008 at 6:45 am (#)
“If there is a Hell would you still love Jesus?”
No doubt about it. I look at Jesus as my hero who’s died for me to keep me from this place. I’m not fearful when I read about hell. I feel love because of their incredible sacrifice.
Great question Rick.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:37 am (#)
Here’s my take:
1) Watering down the Word - First of all we don’t take the Bible the same way that the people it was being written to do. Whenever they mention “watering things down” then they are certainly not referring to their own writings, but rather the writings of the Hebrew Bible (where Hell is never mentioned). Secondly, whose interpretation are we commanded to follow? So many different translations focus on so many different points. How does one sift through it all to find “truth.”
2) Does the absence of Hell make Jesus more comfortable? - Only if Heaven and Hell are the point. Otherwise, no. The idea of Heaven makes Jesus too comfortable, not the idea of Hell. The idea of praying a prayer and living as I please (which is essentially a frowned upon, but generally accepted way of Christian living in the First World Nations) with the caveat that since I prayed the prayer, I get to go to Heaven, makes Jesus a doting grandfather that “just can’t say ‘No’” to his grandkids.
3) What purpose does eternal damnation serve? How could an infinite God expect finite beings to make eternal choices on vague facts that are open to interpretation? Given a lack of provable, factual information, how can one be expected to make a decision that affects their outcome for the rest of eternity? I understand that faith has to come into the picture. I have faith that God exists, and that living the life of the servant, of the humble, of the Christ-follower is the greatest calling. I have faith that though I may never see my rewards, they are there. Faith allows me to persevere. But would I be angry if, because I didn’t have access to the correct information come test time, I failed? Yes I would. If I showed up for my first day of law school and they told me to try a case before the US Supreme Court and lost? Yes, I’d be pissed. And not only that, but they revoke my chance to ever take the BAR, and I could never practice law… Now multiply it to eternity.
DISCLAIMER: I know that last example is not the case across the board. There are some people that do have “access to the correct information” and ignore it, reject it, whatever you would call. But there are billions who do not. Do we blame them for failing? Maybe. I don’t though.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:54 am (#)
When any of you see that “Posted by Dave Cramer” at the bottom of something here on Epinoia, just feel free to read it as “Posted by Dave Cramer and Barbara Galbraith feels this way too because Dave tends to speak her heart better, and more eloquently, than she can.”
January 25th, 2008 at 12:03 pm (#)
Barbara, the same can be said for me about Dave. He’s able to articulate things I struggle to.
January 27th, 2008 at 7:40 am (#)
Dave, I know what you’re saying…but it sounds like we’re making God fit into our Kingdom rather than us being in His.
I’m just asking….
January 27th, 2008 at 8:39 am (#)
I don’t want to sound weird or out of place, but it goes back to what Rick said “If there is a hell would you still love Jesus.” I’m am not trying to say anything about anyone one on here because I love you all, but, “If you WERE in Hell would you still love Jesus?” I don’t know anything about hell when it comes to it, but it was just a thought. And if you think about it, there are times in our lives that are so bad, we hate it, we try to ignore it, but it is there. How do we solve it? We love and go to Jesus with it.
January 27th, 2008 at 9:58 am (#)
Just thought I’d share. This information is from a Rabbi I know…
The Hebrew word used in reference to hell is “Gehenna” or “Gehenom.” There is an actual place in Israel, Southwest of Jerusalem, called the Valley of Hinnom - or Ge Hinnom. It was always used as a reference to the actual “Hell.”
The Valley of Hinnom is mention throughout the OT: Joshua, 2 Kings, Nehemiah, Chronicles, Jeremiah, etc. It was the garbage dump for Jerusalem. That’s where all the dead bodies, garbage, animal carcass, etc, were thrown. It was rotting stench that was said could be smelled for miles.
It was also a place of giants (hmmm, nephilim), and it was where the Ba’al worship, Molech worship, human sacrifices, etc took place when Israel turned from God.
The Hebrew concept of Hell is very similar to Christianity. It is an actual place of torment, where the wicked are held for the final judgment. Some Jewish writings say it’s only for 1 year, while others say 1 year for most - but eternity for the very wicked (huh?).
The Hebrew understanding is always layered. There are 3 “heavens.” (i.e. 3rd heaven - God’s throne room, the 2nd heaven - where the principalities reside, and the 1st heaven - which is the sky, or atmosphere of Earth).
There are also three “hells” (i.e. Sheol - the grave; where all men must go, Gehenna - hell; a place of punishment for the wicked, Abaddon - The Abyss; the prison for the fallen angels).
All of these places/words/concepts are mentioned throughout Scripture. The Pharisees believed in Gehenna/hell as an actual place of torment. Where it deviated was after 70 A.D. when modern Rabbinic Judaism changed it to a metaphorical place only.
One is considered to be in Gehenna (in a place of torment) when they are out of God’s will (i.e. in rebellion). It’s said that the Gates of Teshuva (repentance) are always open, and that one can turn back to God at anytime. This is correct, but it isn’t the sole understanding of hell.
Finally, in the gospels, Yeshua uses the word Gehenna to refer to the place where wicked are punished after death. Matthew 10:28 says it’s a place where the body and soul are destroyed, and Mark 9:43 calls it a place of unquenchable fire.
Matthew 23:33, Yeshua says: “You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of ‘gehenna?’”
There’s an interested concept that was presented to me once, concerning this. It went like this . . .
Q: “What is the reward of the wicked?”
A: “Fire”
Q: “What is the reward of the righteous?”
A: “Fire.”
Huh?
The explanation was this: The reward is the same. God’s Spirit is fire. The fire of holiness. How it effects you is directly related to your relationship with Adonai. To the righteous, God’s fire is comfort, healing, protection, etc. However, to the wicked . . . torment, punishment, damnation.
January 27th, 2008 at 11:17 am (#)
Theology aside, yes, I would still love Jesus if there was a “hell”.
I agree wholly with Dave and Barbara.
Jason, there are none righteous.
Rick, I loved the chapter “here Come Da Judge” in “The Shack”.
January 27th, 2008 at 1:37 pm (#)
Cat,
Those who die to self, and depend upon Jesus are considered righteous. I’m righteous, not on my own accord, but because of God’s. To say there are none righteous, isn’t completely accurate - in my opinion.
Unrighteous would be a person who denies and rebells against God, and rejects the gift of grace and mercy, which would make him righteous,m despite his evil deeds.
Psalm 1:6
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
Psalm 118:20
This is the gate of the LORD through which the righteous may enter. (Those who believe and call upon his name)
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Again, I’m not righteous apart from God. But when I live by faith, love God, and try to follow His commands…then the Bible is clear that I’m considered righteous before Him.
January 27th, 2008 at 1:49 pm (#)
I have some questions.
If hell doesn’t exist, what’s the point of Jesus. Not just His life, but his sacrifice. What would be the point of death and the shedding of blood, unless it was to prevent or save humanity from something?
If hell isn’t real, or just metaphorical, why would Jesus warn against it? Why would was it necessary for Him to say things like:
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
What would be the opposite of eternal?
January 27th, 2008 at 3:09 pm (#)
I think the point of Jesus was to redeem humanity unto God, to release those in bondage and bring freedom to all. That in the life of Jesus we might learn how to live, learn how to have hope, to love one another and know that in Him we are restored.
I don’t believe Jesus came for the purpose of escapism from hell. If so, then what is the point in living? Do we live our lives as though we are escaping something dreadful or do we live as though there is something meaningful right here, right now? I don’t profess to knowing the mind of God but I have come to the point of believing that God’s purpose in Jesus is that I might come to an understanding of the fullness of an abundant life while living on planet earth. I don’t live as though there were something better or worse after I complete the “Bucket List.” I live as though there is something worthwhile today to live for.
John 3:16 are beautiful words that remind us that Jesus died for the cosmos - everyone, all nations & tribes, all inclusive. He died for the world and not just for those who would say “yes” to Him. Because if Jesus died for just those who would believe then this faith is based solely on works. It’s God plus me that makes for the equation and I just can’t wrap my mind around that.
I like what McLaren says in “Generous Orthodoxy”
But what about heaven and hell? you ask. Is everybody in?
My reply: Why do you consider me qualified to make this pronouncement? Isn’t this God’s business? Isn’t it clear that I do not believe this is the right question for a missional Christian to ask? Can’t we talk for a while about God’s will being done on earth, instead of jumping to how to escape earth and get to heaven as quickly as possible? Can’t we talk for a while about overthrowing and undermining every hellish stronghold in our lives and in our world?”
January 27th, 2008 at 3:44 pm (#)
Anthony,
I agree. I never for one moment believe that God’s only purpose is to save us from hell; however, I do believe it’s a part of it.
You use the world “redeem”. Redeem humanity from what? What is bondage?
“He died for the world and not just for those who would say “yes” to Him. Because if Jesus died for just those who would believe then this faith is based solely on works. It’s God plus me that makes for the equation and I just can’t wrap my mind around that.”
So it doesn’t matter how you live your life? It doesn’t matter that you live it rejected God, rebelling against him, raping, murdering, and stealing? The criminal on the cross told Jesus to remember him in Paradise, and Jesus did. Why? Because he believed. Again, I can’t see the point of Jesus spilling his own blood for nothing. Yes, his sacrifice is for all. But if you reject or don’t accept the sacrifice, then what?
If I can get into heaven by living my life in any manner that a I wish, and still get into heaven, then I should just throw my Bible out the window. What’s the point?
January 27th, 2008 at 3:52 pm (#)
Anthony,
One more thing…
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I hear you saying that I really don’t have to believe in Jesus to live? That my salvation or relationship with God is only based on God’s love, and my response to him.
If I don’t believe in God, and the mercy and grace of his salvation, then what role am I playing in my relationship with God. Don’t I have a responsibility to respond to his invitation of love and relationship?
January 27th, 2008 at 3:52 pm (#)
That second sentence should read…
That my salvation or relationship with God is only based on God’s love, and NOT my response to him.
January 27th, 2008 at 5:51 pm (#)
Isn’t there a scripture that tells us to rightly divide the word? Why would we need to rightly divide it if it were to be taken this way for one and that way for another?
Personally I think being set free while on Earth is about Lordship. And salvation is about eternity with God. I know he’s my Savior, some days I have Lordship problems but for the most part he’s my Lord and Savior.
Does it really matter whether Hell is hot or separation? Both would be devastating.
January 28th, 2008 at 9:47 am (#)
I think we tread on a very slippery slope when we make judgments on people’s lives in terms of eternity. I do believe that this is God’s business. It’s not my job to make pronouncement on another’s life in this area.
I am reminded of the woman who was found in bed with another man not her husband - adultery, punishable by death by stoning. And yet the words we hear are “you who are without sin throw the first stone.”
Jesus came to teach us how to live.
January 28th, 2008 at 10:06 am (#)
Jason,
Here are my hang-ups:
1) You say yourself concerning Gehenna: “It was always used as a reference to the actual “Hell.” Metaphor. Is Gehenna hell? No, it’s a garbage heap. We use metaphor to paint a picture of something. It doesn’t necessarily mean that image is in direct correlation to a reality. There may very well be a reality, but one can never be established as a certainty, and while the uncertainty exists, the freedom to disagree exists also.
That being said, all peoples have had a sense of eternal justice. If you have a “less-than” life now, don’t worry, your divine retribution is coming. It smacks of the “older brother” to me. To say, “You shouldn’t get in because you didn’t do this list of things” is remarkably self-righteous and selfish. It demands a humanistic version of Justice that in God’s infinite love and mercy doesn’t jive with me. I know that God is “just” and that It’s Judgments are true, but to me that would suggest that we wouldn’t be able to comprehend them or grasp them. Anytime we say that something about God IS with any sort of finite manner or certainty, then we are being flippant with how we speak about the Ineffable.
2) I appreciate that you bring in Jewish Intellectualism into the discussion. I enjoy it, (Read Abraham Joshua Heschel, God In Search of Man) and it adds insight. I do believe that you will find that not all Rabbis are sympathetic to the interpretations that you espouse. In fact, one of the greatest aspects of the Jewish tradition of interpretation is disagreement, and the dialog that precipitates from the disagreements. That is part of what I love from this forum. There are many views of the same scriptures, and those views challenge and engage the mind. I love it.
3) Your question to Anthony: “I hear you saying that I really don’t have to believe in Jesus to live?” I would like to address this question in a couple of different lights. First, this temporal sense: No. I can live and breathe and eat and dream (this sounds silly, but stay with me) without “believing” in Jesus. I believe it is wholly possible to have a fantastic and wonderful, a generous and fulfilling life apart from Jesus in this life. But would I, having the knowledge that I have regarding the love of Jesus Christ, choose to live my life without the Divine influence. No.
Secondly, no, but with an unconscious yes. Behind everything, there is the essence of that thing. Anything that is created bears indelible marks of the maker. To the trained ear, Mozart sounds definitively different from Bach. A Michaelangelo looks absolutely nothing like a Rembrandt, and the Beatles are easily distinguishable from Yanni. They all brought different ideas to their art, and the idea behind the art led to the expression of those ideas.
Think of something you created. For me, I will use a song I wrote. Whether or not that song becomes a top 40 hit, or never is recorded, there is an eternal quality to that song. Not only that, but that song is forever imprinted with my being. It cannot exist apart from me, anymore. If someone else records it, it changes, because it is their imprint on my imprint of my song. (I apologize if this is getting confusing) Likewise, the idea of Rick, Nick, Cat, Anthony, Barbara, Jason, Josh, etc., cannot be separated from the Source. There will forever be some eternal quality of you that is imprinted with the Divine, and that cannot be destroyed or separated (simply because we believe G-D’s nature to be eternal). Michaelangelo cannot be separated from the Sistine Chapel, nor can the Sistine Chapel fresco be separated from him. Leonardo can not be separated from the Mona Lisa, nor can she be separated from him. Beethoven’s Fifth cannot be separated from him, nor can he be separated from it. There is an eternal essence to these things, how much more so is there an eternal essence to each of us. How can we be separated from God while the fingerprints of God impregnate us with meaning and purpose. Simply because we ignore, or even reject it, doesn’t make it any less so. So whether or not we recognize the fingerprints of the Divine on us matters less than that they are there. Recognizing them does lead (in my humble opinion) to a more fulfilling, love-filled, and inspired life, but that is not necessarily the case. Is it possible to live without Jesus? I guess the answer is No. But it is possible to live without the awareness of Jesus.
I apologize for the length, feel free to disagree (see point 2!) and ask if you have any questions or need any clarification.
January 28th, 2008 at 10:13 am (#)
Since we are on comment 44, I am going to try this as a new posting question thread.
First a couple of thoughts to Jason. You are a thoughtful and biblical guy, which I really appreciate. I love and am grateful for God’s word. I am also aware I read it differently than I did a few years ago. Pray and meditate on Romans 5:6-21. Note especially that in verse 6 “we were helpless”. There is nothing I can do to restore my relationship with God. I agree with what Anthony shared and also the perspective in the quote he shared from McLaren. In another book, McLaren asks the question of why ’some’ believers think that if Jesus died for all some can sneak in the backk door of heaven still full of evil desires and the ability to work them out? Is not the healing power of the risen Christ a transformed life? As I spoke with a friend the other day we marveled at the fact that we have been given the blessing of knowing Christ now. Heaven and Hell aside, that is the great comfort of my life here. But on to the next question posed in Romans as the next post…
January 28th, 2008 at 1:33 pm (#)
I love what Nick asks / says here: “And if you think about it, there are times in our lives that are so bad, we hate it, we try to ignore it, but it is there. How do we solve it? We love and go to Jesus with it.” I think you’ve summed it up well, Nick - we love and go to Jesus with it.
I’ve quoted my friend Tod out here before - he says that religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell and spirituality is for those who’ve already been there.
January 28th, 2008 at 2:32 pm (#)
Dave,
That is true about Jewish thought, dialogue and disagreement; however, it’s interesting to know that evidence shows that Jesus was most likely a Pharisee (I can provide the references), and was trained by Pharisees. What’s the implication? Yes, Jesus rebuked them for misinterpreting and wrongly applying the Torah, but if you look at the life of Jesus from a Hebrew perspective, you notice that many of Jesus’ responses lined up with the beliefs of the Pharisees. And one of those beliefs? A literal hell and a literal heaven.
Ghenna was also a real place. There was a literal place where gargabe, dead bodies, carcuses, and other refuse was dumped. If hell wasn’t a place we’d want to avoid, then why even mention it?
Anthony, I agree that none of us can judge the hearts of another. But let’s speculate: What if a person lived like hell, and rejected God all of his life, right to his grave. What happens then? I guess I have a hard time believing that hell doesn’t exist when there is pure evil in this world.
Can I make such a judgement? I believe so. I can’t judge a man’s heart, but God has given me - and all of us - the ability to judge right from wrong, up from down, and good from evil.
Again, we are separated from God without his saving grace, right? So if you never accept the sacrifice of the lamb, wouldn’t you be seperated from God for eternity?
I guess I have a very difficult time accepting the Bible as truth if everything in it is just a bunch of metaphors. I might as well believe the Zues is my savior.
January 28th, 2008 at 3:51 pm (#)
On Josh’s website he had a post about Biblical Authority. It kind of ties into this topic. I posted the following comments after someone wrote that the Bible was propaganda. Here’s that posting.
Give me some grace here…these are my opinions.
It’s funny….I’m reading these comments(some on josh’s site), thinking I’m such a radical guy, and nervous about the direction this conversation is going. I hesitate to say something for fear people will come against me. But there’s something inside me that is screaming…wait a second….this is too far.
I left the institutional church a few years ago…I’m outspoken with what I think God is up to and that is a network of people, not necessarily a corporate church.
But in any movement, there is, for me, a too far.
Saying the Bible is propaganda? Something deep within my spirit is crying…stop.
I hear what you are saying and understand skepticism….I’ve had a lot more time to perfect it than a few of you.
And I’m all about questioning things….but there are some questions you just won’t get answers too. What happens to faith? At some point, you can question everything right out of your belief….It’s not supposed to make sense…At least I don’t think it is…That, for me is the definition of faith.
I think for too long the bible has been used to beat people over the head. I think the church has used it as the rules and regulations of our faith.
The bible has some of that but for me it’s stories of the lives of people. Stories that the Holy Spirit brings alive, to speak to us today. It’s our guide, it’s the word of God and it’s Holy.
Propaganda…? I don’t agree. I know all the stories of how this guy and that guy decided what goes in it. But God’s way is bigger than man. At some point we really must understand who’s kingdom it is….Gods.
I’m trying to be so careful with all of this. I really am….But I don’t think the propaganda is coming from the bible.
January 29th, 2008 at 8:16 am (#)
Philippians 2:9-12
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
I think this may apply to the thread. What do you think it means?
January 29th, 2008 at 8:46 am (#)
Jason,
Why do people still refer to Santa Claus? Why do people still reference the Easter bunny? Cupid? Narcissus? Because they conjure up imagery for us. Letting people know that their actions have consequences is not the same as saying there is a literal place. Plus, just as there is difference amongst the believers today, I’m certain there were differences amongst the Pharisees of the day. Also, I’d like to see your evidence of Jesus being a Pharisee, because from my reading of the Bible, it doesn’t seem to fit.
Also, PURE evil? I disagree. We’ll leave it at that. To me that is an unbelievable statement at best.
Rick, the Bible itself (I would say it is difficult to deny) contains stories intended to make the Israelites look good (or one group of the Israelites look good). To me, that is propaganda. But that doesn’t mean that the Bible was written to be that, or that it was constructed in a way so as that was the main purpose. I don’t think it was/is. Besides, any religious text comes from a bias that can easy be construed as propaganda. So, I would necessarily agree with you.
Anthony, I think it might apply, but I’m going to let you have the first crack at that one!
January 29th, 2008 at 9:30 am (#)
Jason,
If a person “lived like hell and rejected God all his life right up to his grave” I’d say it’s not my call what happens next. That is God’s thing. It’s not my purpose to make a judgment call on someone’s life. In fact, I think Jesus said something about casting judgments on people.
Rick, yeah, discussions like this can be rather uncomfortable but isn’t it as good thing that we can express ourselves and wonder and think aloud and hopefully do so w/o being judged or labeled? I have had thoughts like these for years but no place to process them outside of my seminary years. But even then it didn’t always seem a safe place.
January 29th, 2008 at 11:44 pm (#)
I believe it is possible to be a follower of Jesus, like the first ones, and “never” know about anything in the Old Testament writings, and “never” know anything that Paul wrote about. Jesus said “I am the ransom for many.” Ransoms paid do not require death in the ransom process. I believe we get the sacrificial death concept from the Jewish beliefs about God, from Paul’s own lingering Jewish background as he explained what Jesus means to people.
No matter, there were Jesus followers who had no knowledge about Paul’s writings (because of John’s gospel), and no knowledge of the Old Testament writings. They simply believed what Jesus said about taking care of people, doing to others as you want them to do to you. Loving God with all your heart, soul and mind. Jesus could have lived and died from old age and accomplished the ransom! What he told people about God’s love for them, that he was willing to die to prove the point, that’s the ransom for many in order to swing people towards God and towards love rather in the other direction. Sacrifice is really just a carry-over Hebrew concept that infiltrated the Christology of the church, but it does not really need to be there. I don’t accept that Jesus died as a sacrifice to please God. That’s just too absurdly ridiculous for me to accept.
So, knowing what Jesus did, and deciding to follow his ways, that makes you a Christian. You can read all of the Bible you want, and incorporate additional “add-ons” to your life, making it a little better, but the very most basic root of it all, following Jesus and being compassionate to others is all that matters. Jesus will know you in the end.
All this falderal about hell is really a side issue about what it’s like to live without love, pure hell.
January 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm (#)
My 81 year old mother and I were having a conversation along these lines today. She was telling me of a “radical” friend of hers who believes there is no literal hell.
I had to smile….and tell her about our conversation(s) here. Interestingly enough, my mom said (remember, she’s 81) that she’s not so sure there’s a literal hell anymore either, but that there are certainly times she feels like she deserves to be there….and that that in itself feels like hell.
I think my mom’s pretty smart.
February 14th, 2008 at 4:48 pm (#)
[...] recently posted a video entitled “Would You” on this blog and at Epinoia Café (where comments were directed), that asked “What if there was no heaven and no hell (so no [...]
February 22nd, 2008 at 7:30 pm (#)
I probably would, but the Apostle Paul wouldn’t! Why does he say that our lives require the resurrection? Partly I think because for him it is not simply about “going to heaven” but an eternal God-based sinless life that we have access to if we choose, in that baptism acts as a kind of death during life so that we can also have resurrection during life. ( I’m getting this from 1 Chor 15, Rom 7:4 and Col 2:12 amongst others) What’s more I think the life of Christ pushes harder than we often let it, Paul was pushing so hard serving everyone around him and trying to save everyone he met, I think he knew that only heaven could balance that, and allow him to leave all the other wonderful gifts till later. It’s a funny one, as he has a kind of exhausting but joy filled passion for all his spiritual kids, and yet that present satisfaction is rooted in the end state and the perfection he is confident God will complete. So while we can perhaps have a nice Christian life without thinking of heaven, (coasting on a freehub of grace) I think its a central part of the true radicalism.