I think my mom’s pretty smart.

No matter, there were Jesus followers who had no knowledge about Paul’s writings (because of John’s gospel), and no knowledge of the Old Testament writings. They simply believed what Jesus said about taking care of people, doing to others as you want them to do to you. Loving God with all your heart, soul and mind. Jesus could have lived and died from old age and accomplished the ransom! What he told people about God’s love for them, that he was willing to die to prove the point, that’s the ransom for many in order to swing people towards God and towards love rather in the other direction. Sacrifice is really just a carry-over Hebrew concept that infiltrated the Christology of the church, but it does not really need to be there. I don’t accept that Jesus died as a sacrifice to please God. That’s just too absurdly ridiculous for me to accept.

So, knowing what Jesus did, and deciding to follow his ways, that makes you a Christian. You can read all of the Bible you want, and incorporate additional “add-ons” to your life, making it a little better, but the very most basic root of it all, following Jesus and being compassionate to others is all that matters. Jesus will know you in the end.

All this falderal about hell is really a side issue about what it’s like to live without love, pure hell.

Rick, yeah, discussions like this can be rather uncomfortable but isn’t it as good thing that we can express ourselves and wonder and think aloud and hopefully do so w/o being judged or labeled? I have had thoughts like these for years but no place to process them outside of my seminary years. But even then it didn’t always seem a safe place.

Why do people still refer to Santa Claus? Why do people still reference the Easter bunny? Cupid? Narcissus? Because they conjure up imagery for us. Letting people know that their actions have consequences is not the same as saying there is a literal place. Plus, just as there is difference amongst the believers today, I’m certain there were differences amongst the Pharisees of the day. Also, I’d like to see your evidence of Jesus being a Pharisee, because from my reading of the Bible, it doesn’t seem to fit.

Also, PURE evil? I disagree. We’ll leave it at that. To me that is an unbelievable statement at best.

Rick, the Bible itself (I would say it is difficult to deny) contains stories intended to make the Israelites look good (or one group of the Israelites look good). To me, that is propaganda. But that doesn’t mean that the Bible was written to be that, or that it was constructed in a way so as that was the main purpose. I don’t think it was/is. Besides, any religious text comes from a bias that can easy be construed as propaganda. So, I would necessarily agree with you.

Anthony, I think it might apply, but I’m going to let you have the first crack at that one!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

I think this may apply to the thread. What do you think it means?

It’s funny….I’m reading these comments(some on josh’s site), thinking I’m such a radical guy, and nervous about the direction this conversation is going. I hesitate to say something for fear people will come against me. But there’s something inside me that is screaming…wait a second….this is too far.
I left the institutional church a few years ago…I’m outspoken with what I think God is up to and that is a network of people, not necessarily a corporate church.
But in any movement, there is, for me, a too far.
Saying the Bible is propaganda? Something deep within my spirit is crying…stop.
I hear what you are saying and understand skepticism….I’ve had a lot more time to perfect it than a few of you.
And I’m all about questioning things….but there are some questions you just won’t get answers too. What happens to faith? At some point, you can question everything right out of your belief….It’s not supposed to make sense…At least I don’t think it is…That, for me is the definition of faith.
I think for too long the bible has been used to beat people over the head. I think the church has used it as the rules and regulations of our faith.
The bible has some of that but for me it’s stories of the lives of people. Stories that the Holy Spirit brings alive, to speak to us today. It’s our guide, it’s the word of God and it’s Holy.
Propaganda…? I don’t agree. I know all the stories of how this guy and that guy decided what goes in it. But God’s way is bigger than man. At some point we really must understand who’s kingdom it is….Gods.

I’m trying to be so careful with all of this. I really am….But I don’t think the propaganda is coming from the bible.

That is true about Jewish thought, dialogue and disagreement; however, it’s interesting to know that evidence shows that Jesus was most likely a Pharisee (I can provide the references), and was trained by Pharisees. What’s the implication? Yes, Jesus rebuked them for misinterpreting and wrongly applying the Torah, but if you look at the life of Jesus from a Hebrew perspective, you notice that many of Jesus’ responses lined up with the beliefs of the Pharisees. And one of those beliefs? A literal hell and a literal heaven.

Ghenna was also a real place. There was a literal place where gargabe, dead bodies, carcuses, and other refuse was dumped. If hell wasn’t a place we’d want to avoid, then why even mention it?

Anthony, I agree that none of us can judge the hearts of another. But let’s speculate: What if a person lived like hell, and rejected God all of his life, right to his grave. What happens then? I guess I have a hard time believing that hell doesn’t exist when there is pure evil in this world.

Can I make such a judgement? I believe so. I can’t judge a man’s heart, but God has given me - and all of us - the ability to judge right from wrong, up from down, and good from evil.

Again, we are separated from God without his saving grace, right? So if you never accept the sacrifice of the lamb, wouldn’t you be seperated from God for eternity?

I guess I have a very difficult time accepting the Bible as truth if everything in it is just a bunch of metaphors. I might as well believe the Zues is my savior.

I’ve quoted my friend Tod out here before - he says that religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell and spirituality is for those who’ve already been there.