a conversation-starting article…

by Barbara Galbraith 2 February 2008 178 views Comments

An Emerging Church Primer - 9Marks That’s the link that started an e-conversation amongst some friends at my former church (I always like to clarify that title - former church - when I say it. I don’t know why - I just do. Anyway, I moved - I didn’t get pissed off and leave.) After our conversation gets started here, I’ll add (with their permission of course) some of the comments made in the original conversation.

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Joshua Kagi said:

First off, the author argues that,

After all, the “emerging church” is not here to stay. It’s a movement, and this is its season. It might be replaced in a year or so; it might stretch out for decades. Yet one thing’s for sure: Emerging Church Version 2006 is going to look different next year. And the next.

I strongly disagree that this is just a simple movement that will dissipate. Reason being, we’re living in a completely different world than we were even ten years ago. Much like how the guttenburg press helped spark a new era in human history and the reformation within the church, the internet is beginning to change the world in the same ways. (Read Thomas Friedman’s “The World is Flat” as a starting point for this train of thought). He is right about one thing though, Emerging Church 2006 will look different than EC 08, EC 09, or EC 2100 — that’s part of the point, to constantly re-asses what we believe.

Popularly, the term “Emerging Church” has been applied to high-profile, youth-oriented congregations that have gained attention on account of their rapid numerical growth, their ability to attract (or retain) the twenty-somethings, and their contemporary worship that draws upon popular music styles with the accompanying pyrotechnics

I’d actually take that same description to describe a lot of evangelical churches. But, most of you here know that this isn’t a group of just 20-somethings. It spreads from people my grandfathers age to my parents age (most of you guys), to me and younger. This isn’t a generational or even ethnic or class group of people. Churches in Africa are credited with sparking the Emerging Church, in fact America is just now catching on to it, several years after its roots were set in Africa, Europe, and Asia.

In the article, the author quotes Mark Driscoll as a member of the emerging church. Driscoll states that Emergent Village is a new form of Christian liberalism which is an easy argument to make if you’re part of the traditional Christian right, but what Emergent Village and the emerging church as a whole strive for is a post-partisan church.

The author also uses the wikipedia (always a dangerous place to use for definitions) to define the emerging church,

Note that a definition like this contains an element of protest.

He’s absolutely right. Much of the emerging church is about protest. But it goes beyond protest. Many people view the EC strictly as a place for deconstruction. While that’s a very valuable piece of the EC, the difference between it and other trains of thought is, there is an emphasis in not only protesting, but in rebuilding, much as Martin Luther attempted to do with the Catholic Church. He did not just say what was wrong and leave it at that, Luther attempted, despite much resistance, to change what was wrong with the church.

# 2 February 2008 at 12:34 pm

Catherine Amber said:

Let me start by saying up front that Mark Driscoll makes me twitch. As I read his remarks in the book: “Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches”, I was aware he would brand me as unbiblical at best in my understanding of Jesus and His words. As one person remarking about Driscoll’s presentation wrote “The way he presents his views is to assume that any other view is in error.”
I have had plenty of that approach and not just from the church.
As regards the emergent movement, another writer said “one of the past abuses of Scripture the emerging church reacts against is the inability to allow people space and time to process beliefs.”
I hope it is not a movement that will dissapate. My experience is that there are many critics but few who stick around to roll up their sleeves and share the blood, sweat, tears and joy of building something new. Lots of poeple like to talk. Fewer like to take risks or to do the messy work of building and mending and rebuilding relationships.

# 2 February 2008 at 3:45 pm

barbara (author) said:

Here’s one comment from the original e-conversation amongst some of my old friends…..

I am glad we are still engaged in the discussion of the emerging church. I found the article very helpful, but question some of his suppositions and conclusions. Still, I think it provides a useful framework for further discussion about the direction of the church. However, at the moment, I am nor sure what venue to enter this discussion.

I am aware of the concerns that have been raised about “messing with” basic orthodoxy. I understand how this mis-perception could occur, but from my perspective it seems that the emerging church offers a corrective measure an “unorthodoxy” that has taken root in the Church. I don’t accept all the emerging church suggests, but I recognize the movement as a type of reaction formation to that which went before - similar to the Reformation in the 16th Century and the Liberal movement of the 19th Century. These too were responses to an “unorthodoxy” that had crept into the church.

So if the emerging church is a response to some “unorthodoxy” in our midst, the question rises what is it?

# 2 February 2008 at 7:10 pm

Catherine Amber said:

I like this clarification and question. I am hard pressed to find the “right” words, but I think the “unorthodoxy” needing correction is the exclusivism inherent in the notions of “orthodox” professions of faith. Jesus doesn’t need our theologically precise testimony to give Him more power or to bring fulfillment to the mysterious victory of his life. He does invite us to particpate in the ongoing fulfillment of His promises. That happens when we love one another in the manner depicted in 1 Cor 13 - not keeping a score of wrongs…. To strain toward offering mercy and grace in word an deed. To quote Brennan Manning “what would the church look like if we erred from an excess of compassion?”

# 2 February 2008 at 8:16 pm

Anthony Doheny said:

What might you expect from a blogsite called “9Marks”?
I wasn’t as interested in their comments about the emerging church as much as I wanted to find out what they are about.

I read their 9 marks and not once did I read anything about the importance of reaching the poor, the disenfranchised, the widows and orphans, etc. Jesus had much to say about “the least of these.”
It is apparent that for the 9Marks people knowing the right stuff matters more.

The Good News, to me, is knowing that you are loved by a gracious and merciful God. That through Jesus we have much hope.

# 4 February 2008 at 7:51 am

Dave Cramer said:

I don’t want to attack the author. He has his view. He comes across as an evangelical, and I am certain he would label himself as such.

I wholeheartedly disagree with him on this point: “Here, exhaustive knowledge is being confused with certain knowledge. I can have the latter without having the former. For example, I can know with certainty that God exists, and yet not have exhaustive knowledge about him.”

He’s here referring to the “Emergent View” of truth. He’s confusing knowledge with Truth. Truth, Absolute Truth, must be a truth that applies to all situations, across all boundaries, all times, for all peoples. If it is Absolute, then there can be no other. Now, his statement suggests that having an awareness of something perceived as truth grants him the claim of “knowledge” about and Absolute Truth. I would say that grants him knowledge of a situational truth.

I agree with Anthony. I’ll sacrifice believing the right thing for doing the right thing any day. Gladly, I will do that. If I can feel peace in my soul and in my head, even better.

# 4 February 2008 at 3:57 pm

Rick Dancer said:

I don’t think the Emerging Church has the answer anymore than I think any other group “gets it”…..Yet.
However I saw a great post that gave me great hope.
It’s on my website rickdancer.com.
It’s titled The New Thing.
Click on and read.

# 4 February 2008 at 5:54 pm

barbara (author) said:

I am not sure that “getting it” is what we want anyway….

What I “get” may be different than what anyone else “gets”…because of the Jesus of love and grace, isn’t that okay?

# 4 February 2008 at 6:20 pm

Jason Carr said:

Barbara,

Yeah, you’re right. Each of us is on our own journey, so God will show us something different, based upon our needs and our gifts.

I think what Rick is saying is that no matter what God shows you, how he moves through you, or changes you, it’s about relationship and not religion. It’s about the heart, not just the head/facts.

I think all of us need to “get” this way of living out our lives with God, no matter what journey He has us on.

# 4 February 2008 at 8:57 pm

john koskela said:

Anthony, I agree.

Knowing the right stuff is not what’s important. Doing the right stuff is what counts. This does not equal earning our way, it means doing the right stuff because we care, not because we are earning points. God knows who those people are when they say, “When did we see you and feed you and give you water, and take care of you?”
God says, “In as much as you did to the least of these, you did so to me. Welcome home!”

Would this have been a better answer? “God, I confessed Jesus as my Savior, I have faith.”
That’s a good answer, but it is pretty much on the other side of the river when it comes to being known by God.

There will be a lot of people that God knows who never even heard about Jesus! There will be a lot of people who did to the least of these whom God welcomes into his Kingdom!

But, but, but, “No one comes to the Father but by me.” said Jesus. The spirit of Christ is in people who do to the least of these whether they know it or not.
Have we not always known that God is already in the world preparing the way in advance of those who come to tell people about God?

# 4 February 2008 at 10:30 pm

Dave Cramer said:

John, I think you are right on.

So often we want to make it about our faith, our beliefs, our ideals, when it really comes down to this: Faith without works is dead. I don’t think he’s just saying it isn’t alive, I think he’s suggesting it isn’t at all. If you say you have faith, but you won’t act on it, it’s not real.

In the article, he adds this phrase in his conclusion: “And if they place their faith in Christ, are our churches prepared to embrace them without requiring a second conversion into a church culture that may have less to do with the gospel than we’re willing to admit?”

This phrase bugs me. The way it is put suggests that we only allow them into our fellowship if they place their faith in Christ. I refuse to make that a stipulation to fellowship with me. I refuse to put up barriers.

# 5 February 2008 at 8:04 am

Anthony Doheny said:

My struggle has been in the area of their “Biblical Understanding of the Good News.” I struggle with the other doctrinal positions but this one I’d like to comment on.

The gospel is the heart of Christianity. But the good news is not that God wants to meet people’s felt needs or help them develop a healthier self-image. We have sinfully rebelled against our Creator and Judge. Yet He has graciously sent His Son to die the death we deserved for our sin, and He has credited Christ’s acquittal to those who repent of their sins and believe in Jesus’ death and resurrection. That is the good news.

Maybe I’m misreading their comment but it appears that there is a sense of a works righteousness kind of thing going on. Isn’t the Good News the fact that God loved us enough to bring Jesus into the picture and that through Jesus we can bring that hope to others. Why does it have to be about my realization, my repentance, my acknowledgment, etc. Isn’t the Good News about what God has done and less about what I have done? I need to think through this a little more because years ago I would have agreed with these doctrinal assertions. Today, I’m rethinking what it means.

# 5 February 2008 at 9:59 am

barbara (author) said:

As far as I am concerned, Anthony, you don’t have to take ANY time to think this through. Our “salvation” has NOTHING to do with us. It is ALL about God loving us enough to (a) put up with us, (b) continue to love us, and (c) give us Jesus as a role model and teacher. We can accept that or deny it, but it doesn’t change that God did it, or that Jesus models what our lives were created to be.

Just my opinion…strongly-stated opinion, but, nonetheless, just my opinion.

# 5 February 2008 at 10:17 am

Anthony Doheny said:

Thanks Barb.

This question I can’t seem to shake:
Is the Good News good news because God did a beautiful thing or because we realized he did a beautiful thing?

# 5 February 2008 at 10:20 am

Catherine Amber said:

The good news is that God is beautiful. That is what comes first. The rest is speculation.

# 5 February 2008 at 11:14 am

Rick Dancer said:

I don’t really know what to say. I’m stuck.
Maybe the less said is better.
But, this sounds like it’s moving too far away from what the gospel really is..at least that’s how I read it.
I’ll just stop and listen for a while.
.

# 5 February 2008 at 1:09 pm

barbara (author) said:

Anthony,

Your question is much like the tree falling in the woods. Does it make a sound because we hear it, or did it make the sound anyway? Why do we even ask - it fell. It is no longer horizontal, but vertical. It is down. It FELL. Do I need to figure out if it made a sound? If so, why do I need to know this? What am I going to do with that bit of information? How is that going to change my knowledge of the tree falling, how I feel about the fact that the tree fell, etc., etc., etc..

Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to God (the Father) except through Me.” (NIbV - that’s “b” for “barbara”) I have grown into the belief that, because Jesus came, lived, died, rose again, ascended, and lives on in us through the Spirit, I get to God. Now, do I get there because I can say that I believe that, or do I get there because of Jesus? Yes to the latter, of course….but I can’t answer the former -its too late. I already believe, so I’ll never know.

Back to your question - Is the Good News the good news because God did a beautiful thing or because we realize God did a beautiful thing? My answer? Yes.

# 5 February 2008 at 1:33 pm

barbara (author) said:

Rick,
After you’ve listened for awhile, I’m hoping you’ll share what you heard. I value your hearing.

# 5 February 2008 at 1:35 pm

Catherine Amber said:

Dear God, thank you for Barbara.

# 5 February 2008 at 5:31 pm

john koskela said:

If the Spirit of Christ is in you, even when you do not know it, even when you never heard of Jesus, if the Spirit of Christ is in you, you’re getting into that place Jesus is preparing for those who have the Spirit of Christ in them. You get there by Jesus (”he who has seen me has seen the father, I and the father are one”) because that’s who puts the Spirit of Christ into people, even when they don’t know it’s that kind of spirit.

The early followers of Jesus had no idea that they had the Spirit of Christ in them, they had never made any formal statement about accepting Jesus as their savior, yet as Jesus spoke to them, he was accepting them.

The traditional church has twisted what Jesus said making more of it than Jesus intended. The traditional theology about Jesus, is very much like the overly legalized faith of the Pharisees.

# 5 February 2008 at 7:15 pm

barbara (author) said:

Cat - thank you, and thank you God for all who are here, and sharing so openly, authentically, and honestly.

# 5 February 2008 at 9:41 pm

Anthony Doheny said:

I guess what I’m trying to say is, I have been taught that there are steps that need to be taken to really understanding the Good News - of what God did through Jesus for humanity. Through Jesus we have salvation! O.K. but my question hinges around the formula’s that are taught in order to really get a complete picture of this good news. First comes this realization that humanity is no good, lost and wayward. And until you understand that you cannot “pass go” and continue the process. Why does the negative have to supersede the positive? Maybe this is something I’m processing and has little value to anyone else here but it’s a question I have at the moment. Why can’t the message be love, mercy, grace, acceptance, peace, first? And let the other follow.
In anthropomorphic terms I want to instill and express the positive things in my children before I tell them how bad they’ve been. There has to be something about this peace of God that transcends all understanding.

Again, I’m thinking aloud here. It’s something that’s been on my mind lately and thought it might fit in this thread.

On a completely different track I just picked up the book If Grace is True. Can’t say that I would recommend this book as I’ve not read it. But I have it with great anticipation!

# 6 February 2008 at 2:52 pm

barbara (author) said:

I hope you (Anthony) don’t feel like I was trying to diminish your question, because I wasn’t. I completely understand it, and think I may even know why you are in that place.

I think the understanding we all must come to before we recognize the presence of the Divine in our lives is that of “all have fallen short” - - and I don’t necessarily equate that statement solely with “sin”. Sure, our wrong-doings are part of “falling short”…but so is just our humanity. We can’t do life alone - not if we want that peace that passes understanding. We are mortals - mere mortals even. To be all that we can be (isn’t that the Army’s slogan? ), I believe we need to recognize and accept the presence of Jesus in our lives. This is not to say that those that don’t recognize are “less than” we are. It just means they don’t know / see / accept as real this Jesus guy yet.

I don’t think we have to start w/ “the world is bad and needs redeemed”. i think that is part of it (although I wouldn’t use the word “bad”) but I don’t think it has to come first. I think what has to come first is that realization that we can’t do this alone.

Does that make sense?

# 6 February 2008 at 3:55 pm

Rick Dancer said:

John, How do you know? I don’t see it the same way but have only words I read in the Bible to back that up.

# 6 February 2008 at 4:49 pm

Rick Dancer said:

It just starts sounding so watered down. I can’t think of another word to use.

Why does it say you must believe in Christ?

Do you think that was propagada?

# 6 February 2008 at 4:51 pm

john koskela said:

From the Coral Ridge Evangelism program, the reply about believing in Christ: Even the Devil believes in Jesus the Christ! Believing in the Christ is the same as believing in your car. Believing does nothing for you beyond filling mental gaps about reality, believing your car will start in the morning and get you to your destinations.

“We have all fallen short of the Glory of God.” Looking at the human race you see several things that are comparable to a picture hanging crooked on the wall, and a wonderful sunrise. It’s the Hebrew influence that says we need to be “Right” with God. I agree with that.

A “Right” relationship with God is very easy. “Rightwised” with God happens automatically when we care about people. It’s that Spirit of Christ within us leading us to do compassionate and caring things for others. We don’t need silly statement formulas to get us “Rightwised” with God. God gives it to us even when we are not looking for it. A gift.

Welp, what about God’s justice? What’s going to happen about all those little bad things we do as we fall short? Is God nice to some people and not others? Recall that Jesus accepted his followers before they ever made formula belief statements about him. Jesus said, “Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Doing that encompasses all of the Hebrew law in one swoop. You do the Great Commandment and you need not be concerned about God’s justice about all the mean, nasty, bad things you do over and over again. God knows you because of the love He put in the hearts of all people on the planet, even when they do not know who God is. That love is the Spirit of Chirst. The Spirit of Christ is what does the trick, so it really is true, “No one comes to the father but by me.” It really is true: John 3:16. (That verse has a poor translation of the word “believe.” It misdirects the mind to think about believing in Jesus the Christ rather than behaving like Jesus the Christ.)

And keep in mind people who are incapable of knowing about God the way we do. The mentally disabled, the mentally ill, and, and, and, and, our pets! God knows them too and has not abandoned them.

# 7 February 2008 at 11:04 am

Josh Walchester said:

Hey people, I love this site and the opportunity to discuss it gives, and I hope I can do you good with what I say rather than just talk at you.
As for a conversation starter this is almost too much! I’m bursting with thoughts:
@barbara
In Greek church style, I’d say the issue is not just orthodoxy but orthopraxy, not just what people say but what they do. But of course any version of “Christianity” that thinks it can do thought and creed without action doesn’t know Gods purpose, or human beings.
Also I can’t help noticing that he creates a penal substitution variant of John 3:16. If the formulation he gives is so important, why did no-one preach it? I notice that the verse I mentioned actually talks about the Son being a clear revelation of God, and people are judged on the spot by their own reactions to the truth given to them, whether they give up their ignorance and excuses and trust in him, or continue to skulk around in dishonesty. This is only one element of the gospel, but surely it is enough to save?
I suppose it must help to go back to the resurrection, as that was Jesus’s evidence of being the messiah, and the answer, and that he actually had this eternal life people were after, and presumably all kinds of other things. Its the one piece creed that finds its expression in “Jesus is Lord!”, my Lord and the Lord of everything!

@Anthony
Its not good news to you until it is in your life, otherwise it’s the news that your mate has eternal life. And its not just our belief, as James (bible) says, because it needs to be living and active in you, an actual part of how you live.

@Catherine
It can’t be just that, as that has nothing to do with us! Surely its that God is beautiful and that he is willing to share that beauty with us, swinging wide the loops of his internal loving relationships so that we can get involved in his awesome eternal serving community?

@John K
Knowing about? Knowing someone has elements of information build-up, but its not just neural stuff. If we are called to be the body of Christ, then presumably that extends into muscle memory and the whole peripheral nervous system, just as when you walk with someone you absorb their walk. I don’t think you can equate the brain damaged and animals, because they are still human right to their DNA, and its not wise to assume we know the limits of the image of God in people, or to suggest limits on others capacities to experience him.(I think I am agreeing with you, mostly) Like you say, God has not abandoned them.
Actually I sometimes wonder if dogs have reached their pinnacle already! The love of life they can have working for us reminds me of heaven, I’ve seen dogs in total happiness and exhausted by it, just by playing with lots of people on a Christmas day. God has the capacity to outdo our dreams far more than we have for dogs, but it’s wonderful to see!

# 7 February 2008 at 5:16 pm

Josh Walchester said:

@Rick
Just read your linked vision thing, I think its awesome, but it’s not new. We’ve been aspiring towards that for ages in our family of churches. Here’s an example of one of ours who also happen to have a nice website:
http://www.makingjesusfamous.org/

Acts5:12-14 has a startling statement: no-one dared go to any of their meetings, and yet people kept being added to them. How is that possible?!?!?

# 7 February 2008 at 5:49 pm

Anthony Doheny said:

Josh W.
Thanks for your comments and welcome to epinoia!

I’m just thinking the Good News/Gospel is not validated on my acknowledgment of such. I guess what I’m really getting at is the question of universal reconciliation. Is it even possible? Without completely throwing it away and disregarding, is it possible? I’m an inquisitive one lately.
Maybe a new thread on the topic?

# 8 February 2008 at 7:16 am

Anthony Doheny said:

Getting back on task here, I read an article that I thought might fit nicely here. It’s from the presbymergent blogsite.

There Is No Emerging Church: A Defense of the Emerging Church.

The author writes:

But through all the reading, listening, discussing, observing, and thinking I have done I have come to the conclusion that there is no Emerging Church. There are Emerging thoughts, and some semblance of a methodology but across the board I haven’t encountered a church that I would visit and from observing their gathering (service) I would call them emerging.

He goes on to list some values:

Missional Mindset
Relational
Accepting
Critical thinking
These are values, not a church. They “contribute to the character of the church body.”

I think he makes a great point. What do you think? Pastor Chris

# 8 February 2008 at 7:20 am

Rick Dancer said:

Does it ever feel to any of you like we spend so much time talking about this church and that church…this theology and that theology that we fail to remember what this thing is all about?

I blog all over the blogisphere. I don’t know if that’s a word but it sounds good to me.

I hear the emergents sticking up for themselves and the institutions tooting their horns…..and somewhere out there is lost the real deal.

I was reading something in a John Eldredge book that is talking about Knowledge.

“The Pharisees knew more about the Bible than most of us ever will and it hardened their hearts. Knowledge just isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. If you remember there are two special tree’s in the garden of eden. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge. The tree of knowledge is the one that got us into so much trouble. Maybe we’re after the wrong fruit?

Are we (yes me included) starting to sound like a banging symbol? Are we doing the same thing mainline religion has done and reduced Jesus to red letters, on a page, in a book?

I ask these questions because I think in the midst of all our knowledge and searching, perhaps we are looking for the wrong thing.

It all goes back to a person…a man….God who came to earth…like us….because He knew it was the only way.
It all goes back to Christ.

# 9 February 2008 at 5:38 am

Sue said:

Rick, we just had bible study and we were talking about these exact things. I agree that to much knowledge can harden hearts. Just never heard that but when I read your words, my heart said “Bingo”.
We were studying Matt 7:24 about the foundation. And we talked about precept upon precept can be a good thing but how we’re feeling robbed of the simplicity of the gospel the more we learn.
I think knowledge has “caused” a divide in Christianity. And if we were all to get back to the basics, would there be anything to argue about?

# 9 February 2008 at 10:02 am

Catherine Amber said:

Preach it, Rick.

# 9 February 2008 at 10:02 am

Sue said:

The tree of life and the tree of knowledge. I’m going to ponder this for awhile. Thanks Rick

# 9 February 2008 at 10:04 am

barbara (author) said:

I wrote recently on another site that I feel we do a great injustice to God when we try to understand Him. It didn’t go over well, so I clarified and said maybe I should have used the word explain. That didn’t seem to make the cut either.

I think Rick hits it on the head for me here - just plain ol’ knowledge can get us into trouble. I love to learn. I love to read. I love to write. I love to see and hear God in all of you, and I love to see and hear God in many other people and things as well. But I am not learning so that I can grow in my knowledge of Him just for the sake of being able to say I know about Him. I want to KNOW Him, not just know about Him. Does that make sense?

Christ says that we must become like little children and have the faith of a little child. Ask a child what they like more - learning in school or playing with his or her friends, and you’re going to get “olaying with his or her friends” every time. This is not to say one is exclusive of the other - we all learn when we “play” with our friends, but I believe God was trying to tell us something there. I believe, if given the choice (and often times, we don’t give God the choice), He would choose for us to learn while playing with Him as opposed to sitting in Sunday School and being spoon fed doctrine and theology.

Just my opinion ~~ I could be wrong.

# 9 February 2008 at 11:03 am

Anthony Doheny said:

It’s easy to get sideways occasionally - focusing on stuff that doesn’t really matter. For me, while I have more questions than answers have discovered that I cannot remember a time when I was more in love w/Jesus. Not sure why that is? Maybe it’s just getting older and appreciating some of the finer things of life.

I really appreciate the words I read on these pages. Thanks for thinking aloud around a virtual cup of coffee, tea or whatever.

# 9 February 2008 at 11:17 am

Sue said:

Barbara, I like what you had to say. Then I was thinking about how I only know Anthony here at Epinoia, the rest of you I’m getting to know you through your words. It’s when somewone “hits the nail on the head” that causes a connection of the heart. Just like Jesus so often does with each one of us. For me,it’s not the knowledge, but the belief that rings true. Hope it makes sense.

# 9 February 2008 at 2:41 pm

Jason Carr said:

I think we should attempt to understand God; to understand his character, will, love, grace, mercy, etc., etc. Let me clarify by saying that I’m not suggesting that we know God fully. That will NEVER happen as we are mortal and finite. But in order to grow, and have relationship with God, there must be a level of understanding. If I didn’t understand my wife more now than when we first married 10-years ago, I’d be in a heap of trouble! Will I ever completely figure her out or understand her? Nope, not a chance. But I should never give up my attempt to understand her the best I can. That shows her my desire to deepen our love and relationship. (I think God is looking for the same thing from us, a willing heart!)

As for knowledge, we need it. Rick, I see what you’re saying but all you have to do is read Psalms and Proverbs to see the importance of knowledge/wisdom. Jesus never told the Pharisees that their wisdom was bad, just that it was misplaced. They had forgotten to take their wisdom and apply it to the heart.

# 9 February 2008 at 9:12 pm

Rick Dancer said:

I so agree Jason. We need knowledge, that gets us closer to God. For me,that includes His word. In fact, that’s the only thing I can trust these days. My own understanding is hardly viable.
I’m not saying Knowledge is bad. I’m just saying we sometimes use to the wrong way.
I like how you said it…The Pharisee’s forgot to take their wisdom and apply it to the heart. Nicely put.

# 10 February 2008 at 9:38 am

Rick Dancer said:

Barb,

I am glad as a child I was fed scripture. And I know as a children’s pastor that’s what you do. I see great value in giving our kids that foundation.
One of the problems might be that we need to make that foundation real life rather than a flannel board demonstration.

I’ve got to tell you, this walking with God is hard stuff.
The flannel board was much easier to take.

# 10 February 2008 at 9:40 am

Rick Dancer said:

Sue, I’m not sure if it’s knowledge we argue about or “right and wrong”.

I’ve been having this sound doctrine discussion on another website.

It’s been interesting.

# 10 February 2008 at 9:44 am

Rick Dancer said:

I know I’m hogging blog space but….so what. That’s my gentle side I was showing you.

Here’s an idea.

Instead of talking about…knowledge, the emergent church, sound doctrine;;;;;what if we talked about…..oh…I don’t know….something that breaths life into us….something that really changes people….something that is more than banging symbols….oh…that would be Jesus.(smile)

# 10 February 2008 at 9:54 am

barbara (author) said:

I am ALL for talking about Jesus - yay!!
And, Rick, I have no problem feeding God’s children God’s Scripture. My spoon-feeding comment (and I dont’ know if that was here, or THERE ~~ smile) was in regards to mature believers. You, again, hit the nail on the head for me. Scripture for the sake of Scripture doesn’t make sense to kids. It has to come off the flannel board (which, btw, we haven’t used in years……) and come to life for our kids. It has to mean something for, and to, their lives.

I’ve no many adults who’ve left their church because, as they put it, they weren’t being “fed”. Pretty sure I was two or three when I learned how to feed myself. I think we all have to take responsibility for our faith development. Scripture is a big, big part of that for me. But so are all of you guys here, and so are my relationships with my family members and my friends. So are the interactions I have with folks at my church. So are the interactions I have with folks outside my church (where I truly get to try and be the hands and feet of Christ - - not that I don’t in my church, but you know what I mean….). So are many, many books and authors, singers and their lyrics. As I’ve grown in my faith, I grown to find that I can find blessings and, thusly, God, in many, many things. Scripture is a great foundation to build upon. I just know so many who stop there and I think they’re missing out on so much.

# 10 February 2008 at 4:12 pm

Rick Dancer said:

I love that comment Barb. Yeh, I hate when people say I’m not being fed at church. I want to say…Grow up.
That’s no reason to leave a church….in my ever so humble opinion.
Maybe those people should eat at home and go to church to help feed others….literally.

Maybe that could be the theme for a church.

“Chew it at home, spit it out where ever you go , get over yourself. Here it’s all about God.”

I know it’s too long.

You come up with something.

# 10 February 2008 at 5:12 pm

barbara (author) said:

Feed yourself at home. Regurgitate for God wherever you go.

# 10 February 2008 at 6:44 pm

Barbara Galbraith (author) said:

What happend to Cat’s reconciliation post?????

# 11 February 2008 at 6:38 pm

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